Post by Big AlTo me, this is more a matter of education.
Hi Big Al,
This is a philosophical discussion, which I summarize succinctly as:
"You can pay me now... or you can pay me later"
To which it means, in PC terms of thinking where things will end up:
"You can thing about it now... or you can think about it later"
Where, perhaps I go to greater lengths than most people, as exemplified
by this simple setup diagram for how I set up mirroring Android on Win10.
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> An efficient program setup
It's an example of "thinking ahead of time" where all the work is in the
preparation because after it's set up once, it lasts that way for decades.
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> The efficient setup explained
It even moves exactly to any other PC on the planet, that I've set up, of
course, which is why my Windows XP menus work out of the box on Win10.
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> Extraneous cmd window (&)
Once all the up-front thinking is done, it's as simple as drag and drop.
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> Drag APK from Windows
Given that's _my_ philosophy, I appreciate that you provided your
philosophy, which took into account many of the things I did, but which
also provided an alternative view of how people wish to organize things.
Hence, I thank you for adding value to the philosophical topic because it's
the bane of millions of PC users that they can't find their programs,
mainly because they let the programs decide where to put stuff.
An example is how do you organize all your browsers for heaven's sake!
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Maybe that's overkill, but isn't it at least better than searching
for Brave under "B" and "Aloha" under "A" and firefox under "M"?
Think of the problem being you're moving all your stuff from one home to
another, and you let the movers determine where everything goes.
How the heck are you going to find anything when the movers decided, not
you, where each and ever application will go on your computer system?
Worse, you used movers from a hundred different companies, so the Adobe
mover wants to put "his stuff" in your living room - so it's in your face.
That's fine, but the Google movers wants to put "their stuff" in your face
too, which means it goes into the living room (aka Desktop) also.
Hell, the Mozilla mover wants "his stuff" to be tops in the menu, and he
triples the number of shortcuts, just to make sure it's "in your face".
Who would do that?
Only on computers do people let many (many!) others organize their stuff.
Post by Big AlMy wife is no computer genius, she leans on me for a lot of things.
Lucky you. If I organize my wife's phone, she says she can't find anything
because she's _remembered_ where everything is even as it was put there
LIFO.
Same with Windows - I could barely get her to use the cascade menu because
she likes having all her icons splattered halfway across her Desktop view.
Meanwhile, if I put a fork backward in the utensil drawer, she's livid.
(The moral of that story? Sometimes wives don't make all that much sense.)
Post by Big AlOne
thing she can do, is download something and know "because it's the way",
that it's in the Downloads folder.
Yes! Yes! Arms high in the air! Lighters out! Waving wildly! Yes.
*YOU GET IT*(
You understand. Oh my! Someone who gets it! I love you!
Here's what happened, in a nutshell:
1. At the dawn of PCs, Microsoft/Google/Mozilla did things willy nilly.
2. A hundred developers and a hundred different places things went.
3. People got confused... so what did Microsoft/Google/Mozilla do?
a. They "simplified" that willynilly stuff
b. They didn't _fix_ the willynilly
c. They just gave you a single downloads folder for everything
And people, like your wife, and, let's publicly admit my flaws,
my wife also, "thinks" the "right way" to find stuff is to look
in the "downloads" folder (which itself is in a crazy location).
All the willynilly stuff is assembled into that one downloads folder.
And these people "think" that's the way it should be.
Post by Big AlAnd when it
is installed, it's on the menu, a simple alphabetized list of programs.
You are a genius! I'm serious. Very few people show that comprehension!
They _think_ that's the way it should be!
It's really just what I said above:
1. A hundred developers working for a hundred companies using a hundred
strategies to get stuff "in your face" put them willy nilly.
2. Then, Microsoft, in its infinite wisdom, tried to 'simplify things'
3. What Microsoft created - oh my - was the "alphabetical menu"
You get it that organizing stuff alphabetically is about as dumb as
can be, particularly since "PhotoShop" is under "Adobe" for example.
In my suggested style of "functional" organization, Photoshop is under
editors and even then under image editors, and _then_ under photoshop
(unless it actually installs as "Adobe Photoshop" as there comes a point
where you just have to let the hallway closet be a mess when the door is
opened (as long as when the door is closed, it doesn't look like a mess).
Post by Big AlAnd the installer might add an icon to the
desktop, which can be deleted if it's rarely used.
Yup. You must have seen many PCs with the desktop filled with icons.
My wife thinks that's where icons belong. On the desktop.
But woe is anyone who leaves their dirty shoes in the hallway.
Or even more woe befalls those who put forks in the place for the spoons.
Funnily enough, my wife organizes her stuff rather well.
But on a PC, she lets a hundred different developers put stuff willy nilly,
and then she let's Microsoft, in its infinite wisdom, "simplify things" for
her.
Hence, she has a desktop filled with shortcuts.
A Downloads folder that must be hundreds of items long.
And when she can't find anything, she uses that idiotic alphabetical menu
where Adobe comes before PhotoShop (for example) and neither is under
"image editors" where they rightfully (functionally) belong (IMHO).
Post by Big AlAnd she knows to hit the search icon and type "turbo" to find the
tax program.
Oh man. I love you. You are speaking my language! You understand.
You understand that the system is, by default, so fucked up, that
a normal person has to search just to find anything.
You get it.
I didn't need to author this thread.
You already understood the problem set.
My point of view is if you have to search even once, you've already lost.
For example, turbotax is under C:\app\finance\turbotax (where it belongs).
Note: As a nod to Jeff Barnett, you determine "where it belongs" just as my
wife determined where the spoons and forks belong. As long as there is a
place for everything and everything in its place, where it belongs is up to
personal preference.
As an example, TurboTax could just as well belong here:
c:\taxes\turbotax
What only matters is when you get a brand new PC, one of the first things
you do (after removing all the spyware) is set it up with an app hierarchy.
c:\app\{archivers,browsers,calendars,databases,editors,finance,etc.}
NOTE: I use shorter names, and I never use plurals unless I must
(e.g., newsreaders can't be abbreviated as new so I use news).
Post by Big AlShe also knows she can right-click a program in the menu and
add it to the taskbar, desktop, or tiles menu.
Again, this is a classic example of what really happened to PCs.
1. A hundred developers did things a hundred ways
2. People, necessarily, were confused as all hell
3. Microsoft, in its infinite wisdom, "simplified" things for them
The problem with the Microsoft tiled menus is that it's an abomination
to manage, and unless you've truly tried to manage it (as Paul and I
have valiantly tried years ago when it first came out), you won't know
how much of an atrocity it is (in terms of hidden binary gotchas).
Luckily that alphabetical menu is far easier to manage, as it's just
an alphabetical hierarchy - but - and this is important - it's constantly
crapped upon by every program that ever installed on your system.
An example is you might put the Adobe Acrobat Reader in the menu under
menu > editors > pdf > acroread
And that works for a few weeks or months but suddenly you get this
brand new bright red Adobe Acrobat Reader shortcut on your desktop
and your menus now have an added component you didn't ever want of
menu > Adobe > Adobe Acrobat Reader
And if you're lucky, it won't come with a few more links just to
ensure that they're "in your face" enough.
My point is that I am forced to ditch the tiled menu (mine is empty)
because it's an abomination to manage with its binary file system.
And I also completely ditch the alphabetical menu, not because it can't be
managed but because every program shits into that menu w/o asking you.
Hence, what I do is pin a taskbar menu which no program craps into
because they're not set up to crap into your custom menus.
Then I drag the adobe acrobat reader icon into that custom menu.
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> Menus are just folders
A VERY IMPORTANT POINT to be made is the organization is EXACTLY
(within reason as duplication is allowed in menus when needed)
the same for the saving of the installers as for the installed
programs, as for the menus).
An example is:
INSTALLER: c:\app\editor\pspdf\Acrobat Reader DC\{all their stuff}
INSTALLED: c:\software\editor\pspdf\acrobat_reader\{exe,msi,zip}
TASKBAR MENU: c:\menu\editor\pspdf\Acrobat Reader DC.lnk
Note the hallway closet example where you can keep things organized
only until you open the "adobe" closet door and then you let them
make a mess of the closet at that "Adobe Acrobat DC" level.
At some point, way down in the hierarchy, you let the movers put
things where the movers want them - but only way down in the hierarchy.
Post by Big AlAll this because I didn't screw with the design of windows
and I taught her the basic, very basic concepts. I leave
running the programs Word, Quicken, Browser etc to her.
I have to agree with you if I set up her PC or phone like I
set up mine, she would kill me because she cant' find anything.
And yet, paradoxically, she organizes her scissors like you can't believe,
where there are at least a dozen types of scissors and woe be anyone who
doesn't put the shears where they belong next to the fruit snips.
Post by Big AlEducation IMHO.
I think it's all about "attitude".
My point is there are very few wives who don't organize the kitchen.
Right?
Am I wrong?
Don't most of the wives of the posters here have a very good idea where the
things she uses in the kitchen go? Mine certainly does.
And woe be the poor soul who puts the measuring cups in the wrong order!
My point is people DO know how to organize.
It's just that with Microsoft PCs, they let Microsoft & Adobe do it for
them.
It's like letting the movers decide where things go.
They'll just dump everything onto your Desktop (into your Program Files).
Post by Big AlAnd users do not need to know where the program.exe is.
Bear in mind you can also modify the _comments_ of any shortcut
which helps in instantly letting you know EXACTLY where anything is.
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> Menu comments displayed
So you can just remember the dozen FUNCTIONAL THINGS YOU DO, and then if
you really need to find the location of any item, you just hover over it.
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> Comments can be changed
However, I agree with you that even so, I can't count the number of times
in my life that I needed to know where the executable is - for example when
I create a shortcut or a scheduled task or if I'm stringing them along in a
batch file, etc.
Sometimes you just do.
But I would think "most people" only need to find the shortcut.
And, guess what.
It's on the desktop!
(Along with everything else.)
Post by Big AlWhat you seem to do is make it harder for the user to find a program,
trying to decide what pigeon hole they put the program in.
I understand where you're coming from which is that you shouldn't have
to THINK before you install something.
You shouldn't have to THINK where it will go.
It should just GO SOMEWHERE (who cares where). Right?
I get that philosophy.
But then you have to THINK LATER where the hell it went.
How many times have you seen someone download a document, and then, not
five seconds later, spend five minutes just trying to find where it went?
Me?
My browsers are ALL set up to ask where something goes.
So, um, yeah. You have to THINK first before you download or install stuff.
But guess what? Remember the old motor oil advertisements?
*You can pay me now... or you can pay me later*
Well, in terms of thinking ahead, I can change that to:
*You can think about it now... or you can think about it later*
But here's the beauty of thinking ahead:
*You only have to think once*
Because after that, everything has a place.
And everything is in its place.
Remember the analogy of the kitchen utensil draw?
a. Your wife decide where the forks and spoons go.
b. She decided that when you first moved into that house.
c. She thought once - and that organization lasted for decades.
So it should be (IMHO) with PC organizational structure.
Post by Big AlI know a lot of times I've classified a program as one thing
only to reclassify it as another, so which
one did I put it in?
You are a genius. I don't disagree even one bit.
For example, in the olden days I had the ubiquitous Eudora MUA under
c:\app\mail\eudora
But then I added a newsreader, so I put it in the same folder
c:\app\mail\tin
But then, I added a torrenting app, so I put it also in that folder
c:\app\mail\bittorrent
At some point that made no sense, so I changed it to:
c:\app\telecom\thunderbird,pan,deluge
Funny thing, I use torrents so rarely I had _forgotten_ which torrent app I
use, where in the Microsoft alphabetical menus I'd be dead. Right?
Luckily "Deluge" would be near the top, but I'd be stuck looking for a
brand name that I don't even remember and which has, let's face it,
NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE FUNCTIONALITY.
Right?
I mean, "Deluge"?
WTF does that mean?
Luckily, I went to my taskbar menu. I clicked on "telecom", and there,
functionally so, was "deluge.lnk", which is how I remembered what it was.
See?
I don't have to "remember" anything but what I want to do.
I understand that you have to "remember" what it is that you're trying to
do, but as you can see from the example above, you KNOW what you want to
do.
You just don't know the name of the app that does it.
Instead of looking for the shortcut using the idiotic name of the app,
you just have to know which of the dozen things you want to do.
When you want to run thunderbird, for example, you won't look under
menu > archivers >
Because it's not (functionally) an archiver. Duh.
Likewise, you won't waste any time looking under
menu > browsers >
Because it's not a browser (although Mozilla may beg to differ).
Similarly, you won't bother to look under
menu > cleaners >
Because, duh, it's not functionally a cleaner either.
You only have to keep in mind one dozen functionalities.
For the rest of your natural life.
One dozen things that you do on a computer.
Every computer.
For the rest of your life.
So when you forget what the name of your MUA is, all you need to do is
remember what it is that you're trying, functionally, to do.
menu > telecom > thunderbird.lnk
My point is that I agree with you on all counts.
Adults always agree on facts (facts are funny that way).
But we may disagree slightly on opinions (opinions are funny that way).
Only a fool disagrees with facts (that's why they're fools).
I agree with ALL your facts.
We only disagree on WHEN to expend energy.
I harken back to the "you can pay me now... or you can pay me later".
I think BEFORE I install something.
Most people think AFTER.
One question though, is whether or not you can fit EVERY APP YOU HAVE
into only a dozen (or so) functional hierarchies.
I can.
Just like my wife fits all our kitchen utensils into a set number of
drawers, shelves, and cubbards - you have to limit it to a small number.
I think a dozen functional locations works both for the phone & PC.
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> One dozen functionalities
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information
which, in this case, is to faithfully respond to Big Al's observations.
> My standard hierarchy
> A standard hierarchy
> My standard hierarchy
> A standard hierarchy
